In recent years, a new foe has appeared: the ‘male centered woman.’ Maybe you’ve met her – cataloging her latest humdrum chronicles with a guy, that she swears that she can do better than, but also just can’t shut up about: “Why do I keep attracting these kinds of guys?
To be frank, your male friends sound like horrible people. Anecdotally, of the 20-30 close-ish male friends I've had in my adult life, maybe one or two would behave like that, and the rest of us would give him shit when he did (especially those of us in LTRs).
Maybe we just come from different cultural backgrounds, but your male friends don't seem representative. It'd be interesting to see a poll that asked women how frequently they encounter that behavior in their dating lives.
No I totally agree, a lot of the points in her essay felt based off of anecdotal experiences rather than hard data even though she does sprinkle that in a little. I also know that she lives in Miami and spends time talking to manosphere dipshits for work so I think that also effects the kind of men she interacts with. But I totally agree that this piece didn't feel fully representative, my main issue with it was I felt like she generalized women and their goals a lot. I don't know if it's actually a tiny percentage of women who only want to fool around with guys on dating apps, like she claims and she sorta implies that women just don't really enjoy sex? Or at least that they don't have it for any reason besides trying to 'earn a man' which felt very generalizing and not relatable to me or other women I know.
Geographic/social/cultural milieu likely very much does matter. A tall ripped hot guy who grew up with hedonistic values and is in Miami likely would behave very differently from a tall ripped hot guy who grew up with (small c) conservative values and is in a small town in the Midwest.
Agreed. A nice anecdotal piece, but I feel like it dabbles in “women are governed by hysteria and neurosis” and borders on gender essentialism rather than recognizing factors such as socialization that contribute to a psychological profile.
Greater female neuroticism is a well-documented cross cultural pattern. We do not have a full biological theory of why but the evolutionary speculations given here are likely most of the story.
I don’t contest that and honestly it makes sense historically, especially given factors of socialization. I just meant I don’t think it’s a purely/directly neurological issue in this instance (male centeredness).
I don’t mean to imply she is pulling facts out of nowhere, just that she seems to be applying them anecdotally but speaking in a broader sense as the commenter I replied to said, in my opinion.
Appreciate the perspective, and I agree that it's gross when men ghost women after sex, or are simply using the apps to hook up with as many women as possible.
However, this dynamic is how dating apps function based on how men and women swipe--men swipe right on 60% of women, women swipe right on 4.5% of men. Women aggressively target the best looking men exclusively, and then those guys can behave badly without consequence. For better or worse, men will sleep with women who are less attractive, but not be willing to offer them a relationship--but that's the dynamic of how people match on the apps. We don't get nearly as many matches as women either (read Lana Li's work on this), which is why once men have abundance, they are loath to give it up. I agree with you this ends up badly for a lot of women, but it also ends up badly for the vast majority of men who can't even get a date!
The other thing I don't get is the whole "de-centering" men thing. That's the product of a political ideology propagated and propagandized on TikTok and Reels. Men don't worry about whether we're centering women--most of us are in some form or fashion. Cartoons Hate Her wrote a great piece recently, titled, "The Problem of Being a Straight Woman is you Have to Like Men." If you hate men, and want to de-center them, why not just be single and find other things to do? On the other hand, if you like men and want a relationship, you can't hate us--like, that's just not going to work. https://www.cartoonshateher.com/p/the-problem-with-being-a-straight
It seems many women today are so concerned with "de-centering" men and overly dramatizing some of the downsides of dating (they happen to men too--I was recently ghosted by a woman after it seemed things were going really well), they're shooting themselves in the foot and making things way too complicated.
One suggestion that I've adopted in my own life to keep me sane: meet people IRL. Get off the apps. It's entirely possible to have a vibrant dating life by meeting people where people have always met: concerts, parties, street fairs, bars, coffee shops, restaurants, sporting events, etc. I've found that it's much more likely to develop authentic relationships and meet higher quality people this way, than what we will typically find on the apps.
Sounds like a big problem is female naivety. We shouldn't be teaching kids both genders are the same. When I was a younger man, it took me years to learn women would almost never pursue me first. And women need to learn that yeah, men often do just want sex and want variety.
The other problem is not ditching and shaming men who act like cads. Not just lovers who do, but friends. If your male friends are taking advantage of women, you should be ghosting them or even putting them on blast. Most men don't do that. Most men don't even have the opportunity to do that. Men are higher on dark triad on average, but there are still shit tons of men who score very low on dark triad in absolute numbers. And yes, men should be ditching male friends who're dark triad too.
When I grew up, I also was taught that both genders are the same, but also that there were different social expectations based on gender. This prevented me from assuming that men and women would act in the same ways, because I assumed that some percentage of the population would act to fulfill those expectations. However, it had the downside of making me rather contemptous of masculine men and feminine women, as I assumed that anyone who acted really masculine or really feminine must be motivated by weak-minded conformity.
Some very compelling points but I'm not sure I agree with the personality-trait analysis
It seems like you associate suffering with neuroticism and, on the other hand, manipulation with Dark Triad traits
But as far as I can understand, psychopaths can feel intense frustration and narcissists can be incredibly insecure and need constant approval
Also, I'm pretty sure neuroticism is associated with manipulative traits; to take an extreme example, borderline people can be extremely astute socially, even if it manifests as strong emotions
It is certainly disturbing to see distress as a evolutionary adaptation designed to manipulate others but there seems to be some truth to that (for men and women equally)
Also, you seem to imply that men are way more capable of navigating social dynamics than women, but aren't men more likely to be thing-oriented or even autistic? I'm not sure that fits with the framing of "men always play with women like cats with mice"
I mean your male friends certainly seem both very adept at seducing women and extremely callous with them, but they might not be a representative sample
Have you had a chance to read The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry? Her work touches on themes similar to those you explore in your posts, and I found her arguments to be thoughtfully and carefully reasoned. I’d be interested to hear your perspective on it.
No sympathy. Women absolutely choose the type of men described in this article, the ones that just use women just for sex. The reverse is true as well, too many men are naive or just too stupid to understand that the woman they are seeing are dating other men on the side simultaneously. They’re just too much of a simp to call her out on it or too afraid of being alone again if they walk away. It’s a shit show out there, but I believe there’s more dishonesty on the women’s side simply because in the modern era women are catered to in every facet of life.
Even though I knew all this, it still makes for depressing reading. I am very much chemically predisposed to be male centred and to obsess in all the ways you’ve described, so the only way I’ve been able to avoid it is by removing myself from the market all together. Why on earth would any woman put themselves through this when this is their guaranteed end of the deal? They can keep their ‘loneliness epidemic’ and chew on it, fuck them
I’m not engaging with the ‘80% of women want the top 10% of men’ bollocks which this comment was a not so thinly veiled version of. That toxic thinking is the reason you’re lonely, not me
It’s actually remarkable that you just did the exact same thing with me. I’m not on the internet just attacking people I disagree with, so maybe you’re the lonely one?
And speaking of loneliness, the stats are actually showing that young liberal women, which I’m guessing you are, are the least happy of all. But sadly you’ll never see how you’re contributing to this unspoken epidemic and blame it on the patriarchy instead, just like you’ll never see how you’re not contributing to divisive toxic discourse online and blame it on “bigots”. My last guess? That you won’t even answer this.
But what I really want to know is why behaviour like yours is so commonplace online. I’ve literally posted online for the first time last week (I’m a millennial btw) and had a very similar interaction.
Geographic/social/cultural milieu likely very much does matter. A tall ripped hot guy who grew up with hedonistic values and is in Miami likely would behave very differently from a tall ripped hot guy who grew up with (small c) conservative values and is in a small town in the Midwest.
And if you don't care about outward appearance, you're even more in luck because guys who do not have many girls flocking to them (most guys) would behave even better.
It’s interesting you mention dark triad traits, but ignore the elephant in the room - multiple studies have found men with dark triad traits can be seen as more attractive and more successful at attracting mates. The average amount of partners a American male has in their life is 4-7, and current we have an increased amount of older male virgins, yet the guys described in this article sound like their notch counts are in the dozens or hundreds. But rather than acknowledge even the possibility women’s selection ability can have issues and they’re going for a minority of hyper sexually successful men, the conclusion is about men as a whole. This is even more common now as incel has become an insult (implication, lack of women’s sexual interest implies lack of morality), and “nice guy” is the go to dismissal of anyone suggesting a correlation between a woman’s interest and a man exhibiting undesirable behavior.
An earnest piece no doubt written heavily from the perspective of the author which perhaps also coincide with the perspective of a lot of women. One thing that struck me while reading is how true your description of female vulnerability is in the context of heterosexual relationships. But you also succeeded, perhaps unintentionally, in exposing the infantile underbelly of the female psychology. But the modern young woman has been given freedom and autonomy of actions and decisions. Shouldn't she be solely held accountable for her choices? Or would she be better off being shepherded by some more adult and foresightful guardian?
I'd be thrilled to have either of Stella (of Human Carbohydrates Substack) or Aella respond to this piece. I'm sure they will greatly elevate the conversation even further.
PS: I discovered this piece via the recommendation of Richard Hanania on X.
What a grim picture of the modern dating market. Really drives home the wisdom in not sleeping with a guy until you’ve been seeing him for 3+ months and you’ve gotten confirmation of exclusivity. Though this kind of sociopathic behavior by men was very much not my experience dating in Chicago before meeting my husband. Are Midwestern boys just nicer or have things just degraded that badly in the last 5 years?
She is laser-focused on the Tinder dating culture in Miami, which is like doing a study on global warming by taking the temperature in Hiroshima on August 6 1945. Basically she's being an idiot.
To be frank, your male friends sound like horrible people. Anecdotally, of the 20-30 close-ish male friends I've had in my adult life, maybe one or two would behave like that, and the rest of us would give him shit when he did (especially those of us in LTRs).
Maybe we just come from different cultural backgrounds, but your male friends don't seem representative. It'd be interesting to see a poll that asked women how frequently they encounter that behavior in their dating lives.
Otherwise, good read!
No I totally agree, a lot of the points in her essay felt based off of anecdotal experiences rather than hard data even though she does sprinkle that in a little. I also know that she lives in Miami and spends time talking to manosphere dipshits for work so I think that also effects the kind of men she interacts with. But I totally agree that this piece didn't feel fully representative, my main issue with it was I felt like she generalized women and their goals a lot. I don't know if it's actually a tiny percentage of women who only want to fool around with guys on dating apps, like she claims and she sorta implies that women just don't really enjoy sex? Or at least that they don't have it for any reason besides trying to 'earn a man' which felt very generalizing and not relatable to me or other women I know.
Geographic/social/cultural milieu likely very much does matter. A tall ripped hot guy who grew up with hedonistic values and is in Miami likely would behave very differently from a tall ripped hot guy who grew up with (small c) conservative values and is in a small town in the Midwest.
Agreed. A nice anecdotal piece, but I feel like it dabbles in “women are governed by hysteria and neurosis” and borders on gender essentialism rather than recognizing factors such as socialization that contribute to a psychological profile.
Greater female neuroticism is a well-documented cross cultural pattern. We do not have a full biological theory of why but the evolutionary speculations given here are likely most of the story.
I don’t contest that and honestly it makes sense historically, especially given factors of socialization. I just meant I don’t think it’s a purely/directly neurological issue in this instance (male centeredness).
I don’t mean to imply she is pulling facts out of nowhere, just that she seems to be applying them anecdotally but speaking in a broader sense as the commenter I replied to said, in my opinion.
Appreciate the perspective, and I agree that it's gross when men ghost women after sex, or are simply using the apps to hook up with as many women as possible.
However, this dynamic is how dating apps function based on how men and women swipe--men swipe right on 60% of women, women swipe right on 4.5% of men. Women aggressively target the best looking men exclusively, and then those guys can behave badly without consequence. For better or worse, men will sleep with women who are less attractive, but not be willing to offer them a relationship--but that's the dynamic of how people match on the apps. We don't get nearly as many matches as women either (read Lana Li's work on this), which is why once men have abundance, they are loath to give it up. I agree with you this ends up badly for a lot of women, but it also ends up badly for the vast majority of men who can't even get a date!
The other thing I don't get is the whole "de-centering" men thing. That's the product of a political ideology propagated and propagandized on TikTok and Reels. Men don't worry about whether we're centering women--most of us are in some form or fashion. Cartoons Hate Her wrote a great piece recently, titled, "The Problem of Being a Straight Woman is you Have to Like Men." If you hate men, and want to de-center them, why not just be single and find other things to do? On the other hand, if you like men and want a relationship, you can't hate us--like, that's just not going to work. https://www.cartoonshateher.com/p/the-problem-with-being-a-straight
It seems many women today are so concerned with "de-centering" men and overly dramatizing some of the downsides of dating (they happen to men too--I was recently ghosted by a woman after it seemed things were going really well), they're shooting themselves in the foot and making things way too complicated.
One suggestion that I've adopted in my own life to keep me sane: meet people IRL. Get off the apps. It's entirely possible to have a vibrant dating life by meeting people where people have always met: concerts, parties, street fairs, bars, coffee shops, restaurants, sporting events, etc. I've found that it's much more likely to develop authentic relationships and meet higher quality people this way, than what we will typically find on the apps.
I don't have anything to add but i just wanted to say that this was an amazing amazing piece !!
Thank you for your essay. You just gained a new subscriber.
Or one could just... Wait to have sex until marriage? Doesn't perfect your dating experience, but definitely weeds out a lot of creeps no doubt?
This strategy is not arrived at by a weighing of the options, but by an outside commitment that prevents one from weighing the options.
Sounds like a big problem is female naivety. We shouldn't be teaching kids both genders are the same. When I was a younger man, it took me years to learn women would almost never pursue me first. And women need to learn that yeah, men often do just want sex and want variety.
The other problem is not ditching and shaming men who act like cads. Not just lovers who do, but friends. If your male friends are taking advantage of women, you should be ghosting them or even putting them on blast. Most men don't do that. Most men don't even have the opportunity to do that. Men are higher on dark triad on average, but there are still shit tons of men who score very low on dark triad in absolute numbers. And yes, men should be ditching male friends who're dark triad too.
When I grew up, I also was taught that both genders are the same, but also that there were different social expectations based on gender. This prevented me from assuming that men and women would act in the same ways, because I assumed that some percentage of the population would act to fulfill those expectations. However, it had the downside of making me rather contemptous of masculine men and feminine women, as I assumed that anyone who acted really masculine or really feminine must be motivated by weak-minded conformity.
Some very compelling points but I'm not sure I agree with the personality-trait analysis
It seems like you associate suffering with neuroticism and, on the other hand, manipulation with Dark Triad traits
But as far as I can understand, psychopaths can feel intense frustration and narcissists can be incredibly insecure and need constant approval
Also, I'm pretty sure neuroticism is associated with manipulative traits; to take an extreme example, borderline people can be extremely astute socially, even if it manifests as strong emotions
It is certainly disturbing to see distress as a evolutionary adaptation designed to manipulate others but there seems to be some truth to that (for men and women equally)
Also, you seem to imply that men are way more capable of navigating social dynamics than women, but aren't men more likely to be thing-oriented or even autistic? I'm not sure that fits with the framing of "men always play with women like cats with mice"
I mean your male friends certainly seem both very adept at seducing women and extremely callous with them, but they might not be a representative sample
This was very well written. Bravo.
Such a good essay, love your writing
Have you had a chance to read The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry? Her work touches on themes similar to those you explore in your posts, and I found her arguments to be thoughtfully and carefully reasoned. I’d be interested to hear your perspective on it.
No sympathy. Women absolutely choose the type of men described in this article, the ones that just use women just for sex. The reverse is true as well, too many men are naive or just too stupid to understand that the woman they are seeing are dating other men on the side simultaneously. They’re just too much of a simp to call her out on it or too afraid of being alone again if they walk away. It’s a shit show out there, but I believe there’s more dishonesty on the women’s side simply because in the modern era women are catered to in every facet of life.
I don't think that applies to women who marry men that turn out to cheat on them.
Even though I knew all this, it still makes for depressing reading. I am very much chemically predisposed to be male centred and to obsess in all the ways you’ve described, so the only way I’ve been able to avoid it is by removing myself from the market all together. Why on earth would any woman put themselves through this when this is their guaranteed end of the deal? They can keep their ‘loneliness epidemic’ and chew on it, fuck them
Final line explains it all, you blame the lonely men who aren’t doing this for the actions of the very not lonely men who women throw themselves at.
Back to the manosphere with you
👏👏 great job engaging with the ideas and not skipping straight to a personal attack!
I’m not engaging with the ‘80% of women want the top 10% of men’ bollocks which this comment was a not so thinly veiled version of. That toxic thinking is the reason you’re lonely, not me
It’s actually remarkable that you just did the exact same thing with me. I’m not on the internet just attacking people I disagree with, so maybe you’re the lonely one?
And speaking of loneliness, the stats are actually showing that young liberal women, which I’m guessing you are, are the least happy of all. But sadly you’ll never see how you’re contributing to this unspoken epidemic and blame it on the patriarchy instead, just like you’ll never see how you’re not contributing to divisive toxic discourse online and blame it on “bigots”. My last guess? That you won’t even answer this.
But what I really want to know is why behaviour like yours is so commonplace online. I’ve literally posted online for the first time last week (I’m a millennial btw) and had a very similar interaction.
Did you read the original post at all or just come straight to the comments? Are you lost?
You are a remarkably obnoxious woman.
I live in London
Why do you look in your profile picture like you have clown makeup on?
Repost:
Geographic/social/cultural milieu likely very much does matter. A tall ripped hot guy who grew up with hedonistic values and is in Miami likely would behave very differently from a tall ripped hot guy who grew up with (small c) conservative values and is in a small town in the Midwest.
And if you don't care about outward appearance, you're even more in luck because guys who do not have many girls flocking to them (most guys) would behave even better.
It’s interesting you mention dark triad traits, but ignore the elephant in the room - multiple studies have found men with dark triad traits can be seen as more attractive and more successful at attracting mates. The average amount of partners a American male has in their life is 4-7, and current we have an increased amount of older male virgins, yet the guys described in this article sound like their notch counts are in the dozens or hundreds. But rather than acknowledge even the possibility women’s selection ability can have issues and they’re going for a minority of hyper sexually successful men, the conclusion is about men as a whole. This is even more common now as incel has become an insult (implication, lack of women’s sexual interest implies lack of morality), and “nice guy” is the go to dismissal of anyone suggesting a correlation between a woman’s interest and a man exhibiting undesirable behavior.
Yeah it's a big mystery why she knows all these "evil" guys and all the details of their relationships lmao
An earnest piece no doubt written heavily from the perspective of the author which perhaps also coincide with the perspective of a lot of women. One thing that struck me while reading is how true your description of female vulnerability is in the context of heterosexual relationships. But you also succeeded, perhaps unintentionally, in exposing the infantile underbelly of the female psychology. But the modern young woman has been given freedom and autonomy of actions and decisions. Shouldn't she be solely held accountable for her choices? Or would she be better off being shepherded by some more adult and foresightful guardian?
I'd be thrilled to have either of Stella (of Human Carbohydrates Substack) or Aella respond to this piece. I'm sure they will greatly elevate the conversation even further.
PS: I discovered this piece via the recommendation of Richard Hanania on X.
What a grim picture of the modern dating market. Really drives home the wisdom in not sleeping with a guy until you’ve been seeing him for 3+ months and you’ve gotten confirmation of exclusivity. Though this kind of sociopathic behavior by men was very much not my experience dating in Chicago before meeting my husband. Are Midwestern boys just nicer or have things just degraded that badly in the last 5 years?
She is laser-focused on the Tinder dating culture in Miami, which is like doing a study on global warming by taking the temperature in Hiroshima on August 6 1945. Basically she's being an idiot.
This makes me glad that I've taken myself out of the dating pool. Good luck to all the singles that are still out there trying.